Re: Quicky about naming a chord

"LJS" <ljschenck@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
news:279a005f-2f3d-4de3-a0e7-5399682b22c5@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Mar 18, 9:36 am, "David Webber" <d...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>

>> >They were not the same people. Creoles did not mix
>> > with the Blacks.
>>
>> You only have to look at the early jazz bands to see what total
nonsense
>> that is.   Creoles and blacks played together all the time!
>
>
> They hired them. And they were not stupid. They learned from them.

Sorry - who learned from whom?    Armstrong certainly learned from Oliver 
(ie black from creole) as he always acknowledged.

> To
> say that Jazz came from the Creole culture is to say the it was
> predominantly European,  i. e. French and Spanish.

Absloute nonesense.    The Creoles were Americans not Europeans.   The
whole 
point of the word "creole" is that it refers to mixed race - not 
"predominently European".   Look at pictures of the people I listed - they

don't look a bit European.

> You are mixing up
> Haitian with the N.O. Creoles.

No I am not.    Haiti is something else altogether.

> They are not the same. The Creoles in
> New Orleans had nothing to do with slavery except that many owned
> them.

You're the one who keeps bringing slavery into it.  I haven't mentioned it

except to deny that slaves played jazz.

>> Look at the early jazz bands, for heavens sake!    Are you telling me
the
>> people who played together (and Oliver and Armstrong form just one of a
>> plethora of examples) couldn't have done so because of "strong 
>> divisions".

>> I'm afraid you're the one who is rewriting history.  If what you say
were
>> true, then I guess I'll have to thow away all my recordings of King 
>> Oliver,
>> Jelly Roll Morton, Sidney Bechet, Alphonse Picou, A J Piron,  Alcide 
>> Nunez,
>> Omer Simeon,  Kid Ory,  Freddie Keppard,  ....   These people were 
>> obviously
>> impostors.
>>
>> If Jelly Roll Morton was not the first jazz composer, then who was?
>>
>> And just from curiosity - who are you claiming did start the
"bandwagon"
>> that all these people "jumped on".

> Well Dave, This whole thing is really off topic. I know it was an off
> hand comment that you made and that I only pointed out that the Creole
> Music you gave as an example was not related to Creole music except by
> the title. I am glad that you are pointing out what our history here
> is and I am glad that we are discovering that the natives have all our
> history wrong...

Ah I see - your argument is that because you are in the USA, I must be
wrong 
:-(

> I can see that you know more than those that live here.

Well as I have been listening to New Orleans Jazz (records do make it 
outside the country) and reading about it (as do books) for the last 45 
years, then I thnk I possibly do know more about it than some who simply 
happened to have been born on the same continent where jazz started.

> You have ****fted and mixed up my chronology

*Your* chronology?

> When Sidney Story created the Storyville
> district, in the late 1890s Jazz was well established and with the
> added money legal status of the clubs, the music flourished.

Your evidence?

The first recordings generally acknowledged to be jazz were by the ODJB (a

white group!) in 1917.   There are lots of recordings of American
musicians 
before that (starting in about 1900 and including non-white musicians) but

no jazz.    Read Gunther Schuller "Early Jazz - its roots and Musical 
development" and you'll know that there is essentially no evidence at all 
for the existence of jazz in the 1890s.    Ragtime became popular in the 
late 1890s (with the first sheet music publication in 1899 becoming an 
enormous hit) but there's no evidence at all for jazz.  And in the 
statements of people like W C Handy who toured the south a lot, there is 
some evidence that there was no jazz then - as he'd have seen it i it 
existed.

>...

So as you know all about it, just answer the question:

King Oliver, Jelly Roll Morton, Sidney Bechet, Alphonse Picou, A J Piron, 
Alcide Nunez,
Omer Simeon,  Kid Ory,  Freddie Keppard,  ....

Who were the great jazz musicians before them and whose band wagon they 
jumped on?

Which  jazz composers do we have from before Jelly Roll Morton?

Dave
-- 
David Webber
Author of 'Mozart the Music Processor'
http://www.mozart.co.uk
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