Re: Unanswered Question #1

On Apr 3, 12:02 am, Neil <nhmil...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Apr 2, 4:36=EF=BF=BDpm, LJS <ljsche...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > After discussions, there are usually a few questions that still remain
> > unanswered. Often they involve terms or concepts that seem to be
> > viewed differently by various members of the discussion group. These
> > different uses definitions of terms and concepts often prove to be
> > counterproductive and time consuming. I hope that answering these
> > Unanswered Questions may help to provide us with more productive
> > discussions and a better understanding of music as well as of each
> > other.
>
> > I would like to start with a term that was used as an example in a
> > recent post: Modal Interchange, or Modal Borrowing or Exchange. (In
> > this case, even the term seemed to be in question as well as the
> > meaning. Both the Pujol Etude and the Beethoven Sonata #23 were given
> > as examples of this term although they seem to be, IMO, very different
> > as I understand this term.
>
> > In my research, I could not find Modal Borrowing but did find the term
> > "chords have been 'borrowed' from the parallel minor" used in a
> > definition of "Modal Interchange" so I will start there.
>
> > ***
> > Dolmetsch
> > Modal Interchange
> > Parallel major and minor keys, e.g. C major and C minor, which share
> > the same key note contrast with relative major and minor keys, e.g. C
> > major and A minor, which share the same key signature. In classical
> > music theory, the diatonic major and minor scales and the harmonies
> > associated with them are called the major and minor modes which should
> > not be confused with the Greek, jazz or church modes, Ionian, Dorian,
> > Phrygian,etc., mentioned in an earlier section.
> > By drawing chords from both related major and minor keys we get what
> > is called Modal Interchange. We can use this idea to analyse chords
> > where the piece is in a major key and minor chords have been
> > 'borrowed' from the parallel minor, Alternatively with a piece in a
> > minor key we may find chords 'borrowed' from the parallel major. Using
> > our ears we can usually distinguish between the two cases. ***
> > <http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory31.htm#modalchange>
>
> > Questions: =EF=BF=BDIs this a good definition of the term as used in
thi=
s
> > discussion and how does it apply in both the examples? Which specific
> > chords do you see to be examples if Modal Interchange in the two
> > examples above?
> > LJS
>
> What comes to my mind are:
>
> Bach using the 1-chord of the tonic major scale to end a piece in a
> minor key (the tonic minor). He did this extensively. Example -- Three
> Part Invention (Sinfonia) #2 in C minor -- the V-I cadence at the end
> is heading to a Cm chord, but Bach uses C. The raising of the middle
> note in the triad by a half-step is called a Picardy Third.
>
> Chopin Etude Op. 25#12 in C minor switches near the end to the tonic
> major of C major and ends on a C chord.
>
> Neil Miller, author of The Piano Lessons Book
> Enter in Amazon.com search: Neil Miller Piano Lessons Book
> ORhttp://www.createspace.com/3332371

Yes, the Picardy third or Tierce de Picardie does seem to be an
example. It is a chord that borrows from the Major Mode. I think this
originated around 1500. Some relate it to an earlier practice of
omitting the third entirely at the cadence for a more consonant and
thus =E2=80=9Cfinal=E2=80=9D ending.
I was surprised to find that in RMT=E2=80=99s favorite authorative source
(lol) that unlike the responses to this practice during a much older
thread on the Overtone Series, that Wiki offers two scientific reasons
for this idea. One, is the low position of the Major Chord in the OTS
and two, the inherent dissonance of the minor vs. major triads as
measured by the increased number of beat frequencies in the minor
chords.
I am not familiar with the Chopin Etude (is that #24 instead? I saw it
listed that way in one of the sites I searched and it was listed in
C#min) and have not been able to find a score. Does it extend the
Picardy Chord concept or is it only the last chord? I would like more
details on what is happening here or a site that would have a copy of
this score for me to take a look.

Normally, we call the last chord simply a Picardy 3rd and that is all
that is enough for this particular case. If you look at the site I
gave for the definition, you will see the charts of possible chords
that can be borrowed, or interchanged for Modal Interchange. This
suggests that there is a bit more to this concept than the ending on
the Picardy 3rd.  In particular, I am trying to see how Modal
Interchange is used in the Beethoven. I see some there, but not the
same ones that was pointed out to me when used as a comparison to
justify the Pujol Etude as being in Fmaj with use of Modal Interchange
or Borrowing. This is in particular what I am trying to figure out.
What chords seems to have been interchanged or borrowed in the
Beethoven? That is the real puzzle I am trying to solve. Can you help
with this? I am starting to formulate some of my own ideas of this but
I want to compare them to what others see with this without any of my
influence as to how this works.
Thanks,
LJS