On Apr 3, 8:07 pm, Danny Schorr <.@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Apr 2008 12:56:45 -0700 (PDT), LJS <ljsche...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>
> >I agree with your look at the Pujol from my point of view. However,
> >there may be a fine point that would justify another position. As I
> >understand the Flamenco Phrygian, all the uses of the notes and chords
> >seem to be in that particular mode.
>
> For the record Harvard Dictionary of Music has no entry for this
so-called
> "Flamenco Phrygian. All it says about note choice (entry:Flamenco) is
> this:
>
> "Much of the music embodies the E or Phrygian mode, the descending
phrase
> A,G,F,E being a charicteristic concluding melodic gesture, but with
> significant microtonal inflections".
>
> that's it... Phrygian entry says "see: Mode" and "Mode" entry does not
> includer "Flamenco Phrygian".
I have seen this mentioned in many sites I found through Google. But
they are all at least somewhat incomplete. I have over 20 currently
opened in my browser. But I may have phrased my post wrong. I don't
think that this piece is in F#maj with borrowed chords from Phrygin. I
only meant to say that since it is hard to find an authoratative
definition of the Flamenco Mode that it COULD use the terms that
suggested the tonality of the Pujol. Of course, Pujol seems to think
that he wrote it in either this elusive Mode or Phrygian, or as I tend
to thin, a combination of both. I still see a rotation of one of the
Minor Scales to the 5th position as a very good candidate for an
ultimate solution.
The only thing I am sure about this Mode is that there are a lot of
Flamenco people that seem to think that there is one, but the details
have been elusive as to exactly what they mean by it. I have run
across some interesting Tables of Contents that suggest a deeper look
into the harmonies associated with the style.
>
> I briefly glanced at the wiki articles sited and gave them little
> creedence. I don't believe the authors, in general, have enough
background
> in Tonal music to understand where the note selection really comes from.
I
> noticed this about a year ago while looking at the article for Phrygian
> mode there. They don't understand how to account for the G#, so the call
it
> a different version of the phrygian scale. Everything comes from a scale
> based worldview. IMO, the G# is accounted for by standard procedure:
it's
> to make the E, which is really V, Major or Dominant 7th in Key Am. Just
> like Bach and everyone else would do in A minor.
>
> Dig: they say in the wiki article for Flamenco that F - E ( in Am) is
> Dominant to tonic function. I show in my analysis that ( transpose up a
> step ) in the Pujol piece, what looks like G7 to F# as bII - I is real
an
> Italian +6 to V in B minor. THAT's why it's cadential in Flamenco. It's
V
> of V to V masquerading as V-I because it doesn't continue to the true
tonic
> B.
>
> But enough of that. You will see my analysis and decide for yourself
> whether it holds water. I think it does.
>
> Parting thought. Would you play the first phrase of " Straight, No
Chaser"
> and feel you needed a new scale to account for the #2 chromatic filler?
Of
> Course not. But the Wiki mindset just might.
>
> >I can see, however, that the
> >definition of the Flamenco Phrygian may include the concept of
> >borrowing the Tonic and the Dominant chords from the Parallel Major
> >Key.
>
> Come on, L- if you're borrowing the Tonic and the Dominant, aren't you
in
> another key? I mean, of all the chords to "borrow"!
Again, I don't really think that this is the case here, but the
Picardy 3rd is actually just that. It "borrows" the Parallel Major
Tonic chord for the ending of a pharse. In this case, however, it
seems like an "forgiven loan" as it never gets paid back. That is why
I favor the 5th mode of a Melodic minor.
>
> > In this light, I can see the argument for some modal interchange,
> >but only as Major Chords being borrowed to create the Flamenco
> >Phrygian and not the whole melody and the other chords as being
> >borrowed from F#major. That is just not what this piece is about!. BUT
> >having said that the borrowing may be part of the Flamenco Phrygian
> >Mode, one may have to accept that the Major Dominant chord is Modal
> >borrowing in the Harmonic and Ascending form of the Melodic Minor, and
> >I don't think that that particular Pig will fly.
>
> No, it won't.
>
>
>
> >It didn't occur to me that there were so many examples of the borrowed
> >iv chord in the modern pop music (I guess Green Day is pop. I think
> >that they are a very musical group and have actually been to one of
> >their concerts :-).
>
> From Tibet to China to NYC to NOLA to a Green Day concert - wow, that
last
> one is truly impressive:-). It's always good to keep an open mind ( as
long
> as nothing falls out :- )
I also like a lot of Ska as well, but don't really have time to listen
to it very often.
>
> If you're gonna teach young people how to play guitar, it's always good
to
> have a bunch of Green Day tunes handy. There easy, fun, melodic, have
neat
> guitar parts - I actually have learned to like them.
>
> >I should have as we use it in our Rhythm and blues
> >down here. There is a common progression I -- 7 IV iv I V7 I that is
> >a standard phrase in many tunes.
>
> I got the Idea from an instruction video by this cat Brian Setzer. Hot
> rockabilly guitarist who's quite good at jazz, too. In the video, he was
> breaking down one of his licks and accidentally "corrected" the IV chord
to
> major, because he first plaed a minor iv lick. You could tell that the
> minor iv came naturally to him and he only corrected it because he had
to
> transcribe what he played earlier. But the sound was so cool. After
seeing
> that, it became a standard in my bag of tricks when running thru a blues
> IV - iv - I ( I play it usually in bars 5-6 of a 12 bar)
Minor lick? I would think probably a Blues Lick. (of course I haven't
heard this example)
>
> > I think that this would qualify as a
> >use of Modal Borrowing or Interchange. Isn't there something like this
> >is Julia by the Beatles, or am I mis remembering? I would think that
> >these borrowings are related to the ones that would be in some art
> >songs and are there to emphasize an emotion expressed in the song.
>
> Well, the Julia example is interesting ( and I never noticed it until
just
> now when you mentioned it), but yes there is a borrowed iv and maybe a
> borrowed v also. I believe this is the part you are referring to:
>
> Key D:
> D Bm7
> Ju - li - a/
>
> Am Am9
> Ju - li - a/
> B7
> o- cean child /
> G7add9 Gm
> calls me/
Those are the spots!
>
> So, obviously, we have that last bit "calls me" as IV - iv, but where
are
> those Am chords coming from ? Borrowed v's? I don't know. But, on the
> surface, do those chords up to the Gm seem suggestive of Em, or is it
just
> me? And where's that B7 going? QWuestions abound,
I need to hear the tune again.
>
> But I digressed froom what I wanted to say. I wanted to comment on what
you
> said about emphasizing an emotion. In the very beginning (" Half of what
I
> say is meaningless") He sings one note - A. The chords ****ft underneath.
> D - F#m - A. Each chord contains that A. Ditto the G7add9. then the G
> minor comes in and there is a lift where he sings Bb for the only time.
> Yeah, I would love to see some examples from art songs that relate to
this
> stuff. Any examples anyone else has, post them here.
>
> There's another example from the White Album, too, that's really cool -
> "Happiness is a Warm Gun" after the I need a fix intro part the band
goes
> into a classic '50s doo - wop I - vi - IV - V, complete with girl-group
> "bang,bang, shoot shoot" backup vocals. then theres a short breakdown on
F
> minor - the minor iv: "Happiness is a warm, yes it is...[pause: enter
> falsetto] Guuuu - eee- un.
>
> IV - iv. It's a staple Lennon move. followed some cool A - A+ - F#m - A7
> moveswith it in the song (Just Like) Starting Over.
Its not written about so much (at least I haven't see it written) but
when they came to New Orleans for their concert (mid 60s I think, have
to look it up.) they really started to get into our music. I think
Paul has a suite named after him at the Le Richelieu. He (they?) came
back several times but they kept a low profile. They spent some time
at Cosmo's Studio in the French Quarter and "picked up" some of the
recording techniques and of course music from there and the musicians
around town. We had at least a subtle influence on their quest to
learn music from the 3rd world areas!
>
> But enough of the IV - iv. Other examples, other chords, other genres
> please!
>
>
>
> >If you have the inclination, and after you finish your Pujol analysis,
> >I would like to see if you can give an opinion on the Beethoven. Here,
> >I think that it may be serving another function. There is no text,
> >although that does not rule out emotional considerations, that would
> >call for borrowing, but I think he uses it for pure musical
> >considerations and this is a particular use of Modal Interchange that
> >I hope to explore. If what I am starting to see turns out to be true,
> >it may have more uses in analysis then I have seen up to this point!
> >There was always a pesky little detail in some Beethoven and other
> >composers that liked to develop various distantly related keys and
> >this could be the "key" (no pun intended) to having a nice little knot
> >to tie the ends together.
>
> Sure send it my way - dtm106 at yahoo. I'll have a look as soon as I
wrap
> up this etude. Hopefully it's a reduction, else you may have to help me
get
> it to a workable state - I often run into a bit trouble reducing full
> scores. Be sure to include the movement, and I should be able to locate
a
> copy of the music. (That was the Waldstein IIRC). I'll take a look.
Its a piano sonata so its pre-reduced! lol
>
> Now onto the Pujol. Unfortunately, in my world " I'll write up a
functional
> analysis soon" too often means "Sometime before Jesus get's back" :-)
But
> I'm almot finished. Watch this space.
>
> Danny
>
> >If you get a chance, look at the first theme in C and tell me what you
> >think.
> >Thanks,
> >LJS
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