Re: Unanswered Question #1

On Fri, 4 Apr 2008 08:59:09 -0700 (PDT), LJS <ljschenck@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

>On Apr 3, 8:07 pm, Danny Schorr <.@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> On Thu, 3 Apr 2008 12:56:45 -0700 (PDT), LJS <ljsche...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>>
>> >I agree with your look at the Pujol from my point of view. However,
>> >there may be a fine point that would justify another position. As I
>> >understand the Flamenco Phrygian, all the uses of the notes and chords
>> >seem to be in that particular mode.
>>
>> For the record Harvard Dictionary of Music has no entry for this
so-called
>> "Flamenco Phrygian.  All it says about note choice (entry:Flamenco) is
>> this:
>>
>> "Much of the music embodies the E or Phrygian mode, the descending
phrase
>> A,G,F,E being a charicteristic concluding melodic gesture, but with
>> significant microtonal inflections".
>>
>> that's it... Phrygian entry says "see: Mode" and "Mode" entry does not
>> includer "Flamenco Phrygian".
>
>I have seen this mentioned in many sites I found through Google. But
>they are all at least somewhat incomplete. I have over 20 currently
>opened in my browser. But I may have phrased my post wrong. I don't
>think that this piece is in F#maj with borrowed chords from Phrygin.

No - not phrased wrong. I understood you were examining possible
interpretations and their origin. I've been clear on where you stand on
the
matter
>only meant to say that since it is hard to find an authoratative
>definition of the Flamenco Mode that it COULD use the terms that
>suggested the tonality of the Pujol. Of course, Pujol seems to think
>that he wrote it in either this elusive Mode

Ah - the elusive mode! That explains EVERYTHING. If you had just SAID SO,
you could have saved me a lot of typing!

> or Phrygian, or as I tend
>to thin, a combination of both. I still see a rotation of one of the
>Minor Scales to the 5th position as a very good candidate for an
>ultimate solution.

Look at my anaylis ( It's done!) and see if you agree.
>
>The only thing I am sure about this Mode is that there are a  lot of
>Flamenco people that seem to think that there is one, but the details
>have been elusive as to exactly what they mean by it. 


I know *exactly* what you mean....

>I have run
>across some interesting Tables of Contents that suggest a deeper look
>into the harmonies associated with the style.
>
> aren't you in
>> another key? I mean, of all the chords to "borrow"!
>
>Again, I don't really think that this is the case here, but the
>Picardy 3rd is actually just that. It "borrows" the Parallel Major
>Tonic chord for the ending of a pharse. In this case, however, it
>seems like an "forgiven loan" as it never gets paid back. That is why
>I favor the 5th mode of a Melodic minor.
>
>
>>
>> > In this light, I can see the argument for some modal interchange,
>> >but only as Major Chords being borrowed to create the Flamenco
>> >Phrygian and not the whole melody and the other chords as being
>> >borrowed from F#major. That is just not what this piece is about!. BUT
>> >having said that the borrowing may be part of the Flamenco Phrygian
>> >Mode, one may have to accept that the Major Dominant chord is Modal
>> >borrowing in the Harmonic and Ascending form of the Melodic Minor, and
>> >I don't think that that particular Pig will fly.
>>
>> No, it won't.
>>
>>

>>
>> From Tibet to China to NYC to NOLA to a Green Day concert - wow, that
last
>> one is truly impressive:-). It's always good to keep an open mind ( as
long
>> as nothing falls out :- )
>
>I also like a lot of Ska as well, but don't really have time to listen
>to it very often.

I've gone trhough periods where I've listened to nothing but Bob Dylan
24/7
for months at a time. Not lately though.

>>
>> I got the Idea from an instruction video by this cat Brian Setzer. Hot
>> rockabilly guitarist who's quite good at jazz, too. In the video, he
was
>> breaking down one of his licks and accidentally "corrected" the IV
chord to
>> major, because he first plaed a minor iv lick. You could tell that the
>> minor iv came naturally to him and he only corrected it because he had
to
>> transcribe what he played earlier. But the sound was so cool. After
seeing
>> that, it became a standard in my bag of tricks when running thru a
blues
>>  IV - iv - I ( I play it usually in bars 5-6 of a 12 bar)
>
>Minor lick? I would think probably a Blues Lick. (of course I haven't
>heard this example)

No, it was truly a minor iv.
Here's what he played:
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x269/dtm106/setzerlick.jpg
>>


>
>Its not written about so much (at least I haven't see it written) but
>when they came to New Orleans for their concert (mid 60s I think, have
>to look it up.)



>> Sure send it my way - dtm106 at yahoo. I'll have a look as soon as I
wrap
>> up this etude. Hopefully it's a reduction, else you may have to help me
get
>> it to a workable state - I often run into a bit trouble reducing full
>> scores. Be sure to include the movement, and I should be able to locate
a
>> copy of the music. (That was the Waldstein IIRC). I'll take a look.
>
>Its a piano sonata so its pre-reduced! lol

I thought it was a Concerto, but still....that was so stupid, even *I* had
to laugh.



 Danny