Re: Unanswered Question #1

"Steve Latham" <llatham@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
news:mgQKj.17153$4O1.10201@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "David Webber" <dave@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
> news:ftf73g$bbp$2$8302bc10@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
> Nowadays I'm convinced that
>> "based on" is probably a poor concept, but also that Dorian had a lot 
>> more to do with it,  if only because it was far more popular over a far

>> longer period.
>
> I would agree, and maybe "minor expanded upon" the Dorian concept, or 
> words to that effect might be a little more in line with what's
typically 
> going on in minor key works.

Sounds good.

> And we shouldn't forget Phrygian either - the b2, which is generally
more 
> common in minor key works seems to attach well to minor key.

Yes if the b2 is happening in a minor piece, then it may well be an echo
of 
Phrygian.


> I might go so far as to point out something relatively interesting:
>
> The "major"modes, seem to be more or less absorbed by being related by
5th 
> to Major - the two most common modulatory paths - to the subdominant and

> to the dominant (I'm only considering Major keys at this point, so no 
> parallel or relative minors) are not unrelated to Mixolydian and Lydian 
> respectively. It seems that V/V, and V/IV, and modulations to those keys

> are - let's say "instigated" by what could be seen as introducing Lydian

> (#4) or Mixolydian (b7) elements into the Major mode. So it seems to me,

> that in the Major/minor tonal system, the other Major modes, Lydian and 
> Mixolydian, seem to be "absorbed" into the Major mode.

My understanding was that there is a strong urge for a semitone intrval
from 
the leading note to the final/tonic to make things sound "finished". 
Major arose, again via musica ficta, out of habitually doing that to 
mixolydian.    Modulation, as such, is, I thought, a relatively modern
idea. 
I am a bit vague on how the pitch modifications of musica ficta may have 
evolved into the idea of pitch modifications representing modulation.  I 
have them in separate boxes - maybe I shouldn't have?  :-)

>...
> Continuing this supposed logic, Lydian melodies very often altered the
4th 
> to make it basically Ionian, and because of the leading tone cadences in

> Midolydian, it too became more indistinguishable from the Major mode.

Should have read further - yes, I think this is right.

> So ficta seems to "merge" them all into one thing...

Yes, in the sense that certain devices in music ficta were used so 
habitually, that it became useful to think of the new structures major and

minor, and to stop differentiating dorian/aeolian  lydian/mixolydian.

>...
> But again, I merely speculate.

So do I - fun isn't it.    One thing about Phrygian makes me cautious
about 
it.  I hear it very easily.  Whereas with Dorian, I actually have to think

quite hard to distinguish it from minor.  Maybe its the b2 of Phrygian
which 
makes it so distinctive?

Dave
-- 
David Webber
Author of 'Mozart the Music Processor'
http://www.mozart.co.uk
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