On May 30, 2:44 pm, "David Webber" <d...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
> "LJS" <ljsche...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>
>
news:3dd41347-4a8f-487d-9c11-7edc759710cd@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > It was a loose connection that related to the misconceptions of an
> > apparent novice to musical styles. LB said that he was influenced by
> > Jazz while writing this piece.
>
> Lots of composers claim to have been "influenced by" jazz, and then go
on
> to remove all the vitality of jazz from the music in their own
compositions.
> Milhaud is a classic example. At least Berstein has a produced very
vital
> musical in West Side Story.
I didn't say anything about Milhaud! So I guess this is a vote for
there being some jazz influence in this "vital musical"
>
> >Cool, has become somewhat of a Jazz
> > standard for one song.
>
> Some songs are indeed very adaptable to a jazz treatment: for example a
lot
> of Gershwin's output has proved very adaptable to a jazz treatment.
> Bernstein has enjoyed nothing like the same degree of jazz treatemnt.
West
> Side Story is a first and foremost musical - notes to be played as
written -
> not a jazz performance. A vey good one too, with a vibrant Latin
> influence.
I see, unlike composed jazz pieces that are to be played like written.
As many big band jazz charts are.
>
> > Personally, I hear it as an attempt to use some
> > jazz harmony and voicing in a revolutionary new approach to a very old
> > art form based on a very old story.
>
> Certainly a new style of musical, but I'm wary of terms which can't be
> adequately defined like "jazz harmony". Jazz has no harmonies whch are
not
> also present in non-jazz music. And jazz can be played with very
simple
> harmonies indeed.
So this is another vote for a jazz influence? I don't see any other
way to relate this to my post.
>
> > Don't hurt yourself by trying to
> > "work out what there is about it that makes me think it is, I only
> > stated that way to relate the examples that were stated by the OP.
>
> I am unlikely to.
>
> > I will admit, it is not very much like your concept of the early
> > stages of Jazz evolution that you attribute to the Creoles.
>
> "attribute partly" As I have said I do not draw the same degree of
racial
> distinction which you insist on, and the evidence all suggests that the
> people involved didn't either (except between whites and non-whites
which
> was enshrined both in law and custom).
Actually, if you understood what you are saying and have said in the
past you would realize just how racial your comments are. I have been
polite and only pointed out at one time that you should be careful of
who you would say those kinds of tings to in New Orleans. I realize
that you do not intentionally see it that way, but your comments are
very racial, especially to the cultures of both the Creole heritage
and the Black culture as it exists in NOLA. Your opinions in the past
on this subject also seemed to ignore the White culture that was part
of the Jazz development as well. Many outsiders simply can not
understand the complicated mix of peoples that make up our unique city
and you, like it or not, fall into this category. As a whole, we
understand this misconception as we do see it a whole lot. You are not
in the minority of people that do not understand the cultural heritage
we have here.
>
> But jazz has evolved and shattered into a vast number of different
styles,
> but all identifiable as jazz by an improvisational element, and most
> identifiable by a certain rhythmic freedom, neither of which are
present in
> West Side Story.
Again, limiting Jazz to a narrow perspective and changing the subject.
I stated that there were jazz influences in this piece. I never stated
that it was any more than that. You are mostly talking about your
assumptions rather than what I had conveyed.
>
> > I would
> > say that it is in a jazz style as related to the more 20th century
> > movements to compose jazz tunes and other forms. Is there
> > improvisation? No. But I can see the influences.
> >Maybe if you don't
> > try to read more into my post than there were,
>
> I only read what was there.
lol
>
> > you may see what I am
> > talking about more easily.
>
> >> > Not to mention the augmented 4th/diminished 5th that is sometimes
> >> characteristic of the Jazz Style or Genre
>
> >> ???
>
> > You don't think that the tritone is one of the characteristics of
> > Jazz?
>
> Not particularly.
Not even as the distinctive difference to the Blues scale that
separates it from the Pentatonic scale! If you don't see the tritone
as a strong element in the characteristic sound of Jazz, then there is
no talking to you about this.
>
> > Look at the first scale that most jazz players learn. The Blues
> > scale. It is simply a La Penton with the addition of the tritone.
>
> The pentatonic on la with the tritone from doh. But then jazz isn't a
> blues scale and a blues scale isn't jazz. Again it is more to do with
> "modernity" than with jazz particularly.
Well, if you can't see that Blues is an evolutionary step on the road
to Jazz, you must have a "Creationist" approach to Jazz meaning that
you seem to think that it has no history or influences that lead up to
it. One day around 1915 some Creole musician in New Orleans woke up
and had a revelation! He then sat at the piano and started to play
Jazz and write it and voila, Jazz was created.
>
> > Is
> > it the only form of music that uses this interval? I don't think so
> > and I did not state that it was. What would make you take that leap?
>
> The association you made with jazz.
>
> >> It is an interval which is used in all sorts of ways, by all sorts of
> >> music,
> >> including in a dominant 7th chord which predates jazz by centuries.
>
> > Thanks for sharing that with us. What does if have to do with
> > anything?
>
> It has to do with everything - not just jazz.
They why does your statement seem to say that it is NOT associated
with Jazz. Talk about changing the context on the fly! This is just
getting silly. Obviously, you have been upset that your views of the
beginnings of Jazz did not start magically around 1915 and you have to
try to prove that I don't know anything about the culture in which I
grew up and still live in. You just can't seem to let it go. This I
don't understand! I have pointed out threads that lead to your concept
of when Jazz started. I have posted links that do***ent its existence
and beginnings that existed 25 years before the time you mentioned
with hard evidence and many other links that showed how people much
closer to the its inception told stories that sup****ted its beginnings
long before the recording that made such a great impression were
recorded. In fact, all the attributes that you have mentioned in this
post date back to the early music that the slaves brought over with
them from Africa long before there ever were any recordings! Then too,
everything that I had pointed out to you has never disputed that you
seem to know tons about the time when Jazz was ex****ted from New
Orleans (certainly more about its spread then I care about! I leave
that to the historians.) and started its spread that lead to your
discovery of it as a youngster in G.B.
I am happy that you like it. I am glad that we have provided you with
such joy. I would hope that you will come to realize that Jazz was a
product of many factors of our culture. You seem to be an intelligent
person and a dedicated student of music and improvisation. I will not,
however, continue this inane thread much longer. It is simply silly
and I realize in this response that I am starting to reply in re of
things that have nothing to do with what I said. I made a simple
statement that related a work of Bernstein that he made reference to
as being influenced by jazz. If you missed the "tongue in cheek"
reference that used the OPs misconception of genre and style as well
as the erroneous statement that Jazz, as well as several other genres
of music, were all made up of scale steps then I am sorry. Maybe it
was just too subtle for you. LB said it, I referred to his statement
of his influences. Your overblown response seems to be generated by
something else entirely!
If you want to discuss what Jazz is and what it is not, I will be
happy to explore the various points of view of that. It is, in fact,
something that has changed over the years and is particularly fuzzy in
today's 21st century world. I am sure that we have enough differences
of opinions on this subject that may have some relevance to something!
But to continue to respond to your assumptions of what you think I
meant beyond LB's own reference is just not worth my time.
LJS
>
> Dave
> --
> David Webber
> Author of 'Mozart the Music Processor'http://www.mozart.co.uk
> For discussion/sup****t
seehttp://www.mozart.co.uk/mozartists/mailinglist.htm
|
