Re: Melodies move by step in any form of music?

"LJS" <ljschenck@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
news:55eb511a-d38c-4a2b-b96f-686c2deb3ad1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On May 31, 8:14 am, "Tom K." <tkor...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> "Alain Naigeon" <anaig...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>
>> news:48406765$0$27224$426a74cc@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>>
>> > Tom, where is it written that a scale must have 7 notes, or more than
>> > four,
>> > or that it should contain at least one interval not greater than some
>> > inferior
>> > limit, or..?
>> > In other words, I'm not necessarly disagreeing with your answer, but 
>> > I'd
>> > then ask : how can we turn our common feeling of a scale to a
rational
>> > definition ?
>>
>> It seems to me that a scale is a theoretical idea - a collection of
>> pitch-cl***** serving as a reference for a body of music.  While 
>> personally
>> I would prefer that it be limited to a subset of the chromatic whole
the
>> term "chromatic scale" or even "twelve-tone scale" has been in common 
>> usage,
>> so the upper limitation is apparently 12 for 12 TET music.
>>
>> As far as the lower limitation is concerned, I would argue that there
is 
>> a
>> large body of music employing pentatonic scales - but not anything 
>> smaller.
>> So if you can show the 4 tone (especially o7) music, I would revise
that
>> opinion.
>>
>> So a  "rational definition" would be 5~12 notes; IMHO, a more useful
one
>> would be 5~8 notes as that encomp***** the largest body of
non-chromatic
>> music.
>>
>> Tom K.
>
> Hi Tom,
> Your argument makes sense from several perspectives, but I loose it
> when you insist on real examples to accept an obviously theoretical
> premise.
>
> First, however to the smaller end of the number of notes for a scale.
> If you delve into the world of songs that children learn and sing,
> even with different words in many cultures, you will find examples of
> the tone set  m_sl  as well as d_m_sl and m_sl_d as well as other
> three and four note tone sets that are used as scales. It may be
> argued that these are part of a greater whole, however that does not
> have to be the case. The fact that these tunes can be harmonized using
> other scales does not mandate that they themselves are written in
> those larger scales.

Do you have examples of these songs which are not harmonized?  The melody
of 
the bossa nova "One Note Samba" (excluding the bridge) consists of sol-do,

yet no one calls it a 2 note scale.  The 2 notes are a subset of the major

scale - call them a motive, a dyad or whatever, but not a scale.

> Speculating outside my main field, I also seem to
> remember some African chants that seem to be built on three or four
> note patterns as well as possibly some Native American music.

Not all music is based upon scales - unless you stretch the definition of 
scale so far that you begin to lose the usefullness of the term.  Although
I 
suspect that a great deal of African and Native American music is 
pentatonic, the music you mention would have a smaller referential pitch 
collection; and as a result, it would not exhibit the larger pitch 
complexities of scale based music.  Of course, the lack of higher level 
pitch relations is more than compensated by other aspects, especially 
rhythmic richness.

A distinction between "scale" and "motive" (long term or general, and
short 
term or local) might be helpful here.

> Now for Alain's scale. I suggested that it be expanded to two octaves
> that was composed of as two octaves with the same note to show
> ambiguities with some definitions, but in reality, this is unnecessary
> as all scales can of course go up to other octaves and lower octaves.
> Now for the theoretical answer to the use of these notes as a scale.

Sorry but I don't think that using enharmonic equivalents such as your "C
Eb 
Gb A B# D# F# Gx C" qualifies as anything more than a Co7 chord.

Again, if you wish to call structures of fewer than 5 pitch-cl*****
scales, 
then have at it.  I just don't think it helps in terms of Alain's request
to 
"turn our common feeling of a scale to a rational definition".
Tom K.