Re: Melodies move by step in any form of music?

"LJS" <ljschenck@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
news:5882fcd9-bc69-47ca-b17a-9019fc02b581@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On May 31, 11:10 am, "Tom K." <tkor...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> I am referring to children's songs. Things like "Star Light Star
> Bright", "Hot Cross Buns" and hundreds (if not thousands) of songs
> that have come to be a standard part of children's literature usually
> based on Nursery Rhymes and other chant like material. I don't know
> how extensive these tunes have been researched as to the actual origin
> of the tones that are used today, but the lyrics, which are often
> shared with the same melody go back at least several hundred years. I
> can only imagine that since I have heard the same melodies on at least
> 4 continents that there is some basic origin of these tone sets that
> have been used to create folksongs. These tone sets are organized by
> Zoltan Kodaly (and others) in an evolutionary order to teach music.
> They seem to come from the overtone series and they appear to be
> timeless. As you combine all of these songs, you will assemble the
> Pentatonic Scale and then the Major scales and all of its modes, but
> this is somewhat non relevant to the context that I used based on your
> definition (which I gather that you have at least some dissagrement)
> that prompted my response.
>

I notice you are using the term "tone sets" rather than scales - while I'd

prefer "PC sets", we're essentially in agreement.  These songs may be
based 
on scale subsets, but not scales.

>>
>> > Speculating outside my main field, I also seem to
>> > remember some African chants that seem to be built on three or four
>> > note patterns as well as possibly some Native American music.
>>
>> Not all music is based upon scales - unless you stretch the definition
of
>> scale so far that you begin to lose the usefullness of the term. 
>> Although I
>> suspect that a great deal of African and Native American music is
>> pentatonic, the music you mention would have a smaller referential
pitch
>> collection; and as a result, it would not exhibit the larger pitch
>> complexities of scale based music.  Of course, the lack of higher level
>> pitch relations is more than compensated by other aspects, especially
>> rhythmic richness.
>>
>
> I don't know that all of this music is Pentatonic based although a lot
> of it certainly is. I don't remember saying that all music is based on
> scales, although I am a bit hard pressed to think of any except some
> modern music as examples at this precise moment. There may very well
> be some older music that is not that is evading me at this stage of
> needing coffee in the late morning! I don't really know how one would
> stretch the definition of scale to lose the usefulness unless you were
> mixing contexts of the definition and the use. Your mention of music,
> of course, would be out of the realm of a discussion of scale context
> and usefulness. Unless the rhythm is using pitched instruments there
> would be no relation****p and if there were, then the rhythmic aspect
> would still not be a factor on the scale used or its use.
>
> I don't understand your statement about smaller referential pitch
> collections. I would not assume that a scale that was a smaller tone
> set would have the same complexities of scales of a larger tone set
> and I didn't think that I implied that in any manner.

That's our difference - I wouldn't term a "smaller tone set" as a scale.

>> A distinction between "scale" and "motive" (long term or general, and 
>> short
>> term or local) might be helpful here.
>
> At present, I don't see how this applies. A tone set is not a motive.

Since a PC set may contain 2~12 tones, all scales are tone sets.  And all 
motives are tone sets.  I was using the term motive to distinguish between
a 
relatively short, local musical pattern and a longer one that truly 
functions as a scale.  If you find it confusing, don't use it.

> application of your idea, it seems that now you are saying that it
> only applies to specific genres of music but then does not apply to
> music in a broader context. I am, as stated before,  interested in
> finding a definition that will work for as much of the music spectrum
> as possible, not just certain limited periods of musical history.

Nope.  I'm just saying that (IMHO) in order to be useful, the term scale 
should refer to a collection of at least 5 pitches.

Tom K.