On May 31, 1:59 pm, LJS <ljsche...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On May 31, 10:20 am, "David Webber" <d...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> wrote:
>
> > "LJS" <ljsche...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>
>
>news:412c9eb4-4d5d-4dd3-b632-7d226aaea1a4@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > >> Lots of composers claim to have been "influenced by" jazz, and
then go
> > >> on
> > >> to remove all the vitality of jazz from the music in their own
> > >> compositions.
> > >> Milhaud is a classic example. At least Berstein has a produced
very
> > >> vital
> > >> musical in West Side Story.
>
> > > I didn't say anything about Milhaud! So I guess this is a vote for
> > > there being some jazz influence in this "vital musical"
>
> > With logic like that I'm not surprised you don't understand what i'm
saying.
But Dave, you are saying that he thought he was influenced by Jazz
and that his music, unlike Milhaud's has kept the vitality that
influenced him! I understand what you are saying all right, you just
aren't saying much that applies to my post!
>
> > > I see, unlike composed jazz pieces that are to be played like
written.
> > > As many big band jazz charts are.
>
> > ????
>
> > I play big band charts all the time. I can't remember one which is
played
> > exactly as written. In almost all of them the played note durations
are
> > nothing like as written, and even where the note durations are close
to what
> > is written, there are one or more chunks labelled "solo" where members
of
> > the band have to play something of their own invention.
Now this is really surprising! A man that is author of a musical
notation software package should realize the limitations and
conventions of notation of various styles and genres. In this short
paragraph, you have taken several liberties that are just not true.
One being that note durations are nothing as written! I think that in
previous posts concerning the notation of jazz as being imprecise and
indeed it is. So is much Baroque and lots of Classical music. The MD
decides how the classical music is interpreted as does the leader of
the jazz band or the members of the group decide what swings or not!
Playing composed Jazz is no different from playing any composed music.
If any music was played by the standards that you are using to
criticize my statement that Jazz can be composed and played as written
then people in the musical notation software business would have no
need for "humanization" and there would have been a lot less ink
written on the subject here. Then too, all jazz band charts and
certainly other forms of composed jazz do not have improvisatonal
sections. And on the other side, there are improvisational sections in
some classically composed music so again, this is not generic to the
post. I am really surprised by your comments. I know that you know
better.
>
> > I have also played "West Side Story" as written, as people expected it
to
> > sound, and as directed by the MD. It is not jazz.
Again, this may be true, but I did not say that it was. I carefully
explained that I was referring to his influence by jazz and that the
piece used many jazz elements.(most of which had skips, BTW, did you
read the original post?) It was you in a response that shaded my post
to claim that WSS is a Jazz compositon, not, as you very well know,
what was meant by the post.
>
> > >> > Personally, I hear it as an attempt to use some
> > >> > jazz harmony and voicing in a revolutionary new approach to a
very old
> > >> > art form based on a very old story.
>
> > >> Certainly a new style of musical, but I'm wary of terms which can't
be
> > >> adequately defined like "jazz harmony". Jazz has no harmonies
whch are
> > >> not
> > >> also present in non-jazz music. And jazz can be played with very
simple
> > >> harmonies indeed.
And Jazz can also be played with complex harmonies as well, and how
does the fact that jazz has no unique harmonies of their own (Joey may
disagree with you concerning the TriToneSubs!) Jazz has certainly
expanded harmony in unique ways. I don't know if there are some that
have not been copied or not but I don't see how this applies in any
event. What exactly is your point?
>
> > > So this is another vote for a jazz influence? I don't see any other
> > > way to relate this to my post.
>
> > No it is astatement that your "attempt to use some jazz harmony" is a
> > meaningless assertion, and theat the harmonies in question are not
> > restricted to jazz. There is a "latin" influence but that does not
mean a
> > "jazz influence".
What harmonies in question? Did you make up examples that you are
attributing to me? I have made no specific claims as to harmonies at
all! Where is this coming from? The score uses a jazz band
instrumentation in some sections including the drums set, string bass
and brass big band licks and orchestration. This certainly sounds like
an influence of the Jazz genre to me and to most people that I have
heard speak about it. There is also some Latin influences as well.
Does his use of more than one influence negate the Jazz influence in
your eyes? It doesn't in mine. I would expect this in a piece that is
written to show life in the melting pot of NYC.
>
> > >> "attribute partly" As I have said I do not draw the same degree
of
> > >> racial
> > >> distinction which you insist on, and the evidence all suggests that
the
> > >> people involved didn't either (except between whites and non-whites
which
> > >> was enshrined both in law and custom).
See, this is the part that you don't understand. It has nothing to do
with race. My statements were all about the Black CULTURE and the
Creole CULTURE. Or in those days, this was more of Blacks, that were
descendant of the slaves and the Creoles that were descendant many
other cultures that existed in New Orleans before we were purchased by
the US. Their cultures are not dependent on their color. That is what
you are saying. By lumping the Blacks descendant from the slaves and
the Creoles that were here from the days of the Spanish and the French
that was a part of those cultures and the twain has not fully met even
today! (although it has changed a lot over the years) To claim that
Jazz was a product only of the Creole people from the early 1900s is a
slap in the face to all the Black musicians that suffered the pains of
working to create all the elements that evolved to Jazz. This is where
your racism lies. You are ignoring the contribution and hard work of
the Black culture that started the whole process and giving all the
credit to the Creole Culture! I don't really expect you to see this,
but that is the way it is.
>
> > > Actually, if you understood what you are saying and have said in the
> > > past you would realize just how racial your comments are.
>
> > ROFL!
ROLF! ? Is that something like ROUS!
>
> > > I have been
> > > polite and only pointed out at one time that you should be careful
of
> > > who you would say those kinds of tings to in New Orleans.
>
> > I had no problems discussing jazz in New Orleans, on either of my
visits.
If with two visits you found your way into the real Black community in
New Orleans, you did much better than many that have been here for
much longer times! If you found your way beyond the middle and up
class, I would be surprised much less to get into the real Black
culture that has been oppressed by both the Whites, Creoles and more
influential Blacks for so many years.
>
> > > Your opinions in the past
> > > on this subject also seemed to ignore the White culture that was
part
> > > of the Jazz development as well.
>
> > I can see you understood absolutely nothing of what I said.
Well I tried on several occasions to find out what you were saying. I
even stated the things that I am saying now to you and asked if this
is what you meant and it seemed that you did! Jazz started in 1915
with a Creole Band and they were the creators of Jazz. It was the only
thing that you agreed with! I said that there was Jas Music played by
the Blacks in Storyville and you said NO! I said that the slaves
jammed with the Jazz instruments and you said NO! I said that the
Ragitty Piano was an earlier evolutionary step to Jazz and you said
NO! I said that Blues was another earlier evolutionary step and you
said NO! I sent you links to do***entation to sites that made
reference to all of this and you said "But Gunter Schuller said.."
Please, pray tell, what is it that you have said about our music that
I don't understand?
>
> > > Many outsiders simply can not
> > > understand the complicated mix of peoples that make up our unique
city
> > > and you, like it or not, fall into this category....
>
> > I'm afraid that is utterly pathetic. Just go back to your idea that
they
> > were playing jazz before the Louisiana Purchase in 1803, live in your
own
> > fictional world, and please don't trouble those of us who know
something
> > about it, with any more of your ridiculous accusations.
When I find one, I may. But in the meantime, you are only claiming
that you know better. You have provided no proof. You are saying that
all those citations that I gave you are not true, that all these other
forms of music that ***ulated in what we now know as jazz didn't
happen. You write off all the things that the Blacks that survived the
slave culture did to contribute to the music that we now call Jazz.
You seem to claim that since the term Jas, later to be changed to
Jazz, did not appear in print until 1915 that all music before that
was something other than Jazz. So I will continue to work and play
with descendants of both the Blacks and Creole families that started
the whole thing and simply believe what they believe as truth rather
than someone that has been here only 2 times and considers Gunter
Schuller's research through a limited data base to be the Gospel of
the music that I play all the time and have researched not only on the
web but with people who's fathers and grandfathers were there playing
Jazz before the 1900s and even they have stories of how they learned
from other old timers that were playing the music before that. Sorry,
Dave. Your software may be fine, but your sense of history is really
somewhat limited to sources that have not done their homework!
Have you ever checked the resources that I sent you? It sounds as if
you have not. Believe what you want, or check out the sources. The
choice is yours. My guess is that you don't have the guts to really
research the information that I gave you nor will I see any
explanation of how I am misunderstanding your position! You will
probably just continue to spout off that you know it all in spite of
the fact that more complete research will prove that Jazz had its
beginnings long before 1915.
LJS
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