Re: 7b5, or 7#11?

"Steve Latham" <llatham@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
>> "Steve Latham" <llatham@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
>>
>>>C E Gb Bb
>>>
>>> C E Bb F#
>>>
>>> See the problem?
>>
>> Not really.
>>
>> b5 tells me that there is a b5 but no P5 in the chord, but there could
be 
>> a P4 or 11 in the chord (if adding tensions) and associated scale.
>>
>> #11 or #4 is telling me there is a P5 in the chord and associated
scale, 
>> but no P4.
>
> But what if your voicing omits the 5th, which is commonly done?
>
> Or, is it fair to say that the 5th "should be" included in 11th voicings

> so the distinction between #11/b5 etc. can be maintained?
>
> It's kind of like omitting the 5th from a m7b5 isn't something you'd 
> probably want to do????

The point I'm trying to make is that the #11 or b5 spelling of the note in

question tells you what adjacent notes are available regardless of whether

you include them or not in either the chord or associated scale. #11
alters 
the 4th leaving the 5th intact, b5 alters the 5th leaving the 4th
unchanged.

If you omit the 5th from a #11 chord, it is still there as an option and
you 
don't change the essence of the chord.

Yes, you would usually want to include the b5 in a diminished or 
half-diminished chord as it is fundamental to the sonority.


Fiona