Re: Chord Function?

On Jul 17, 11:14 pm, tonydecap...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
> On Jul 17, 11:59 pm, LJS <ljsche...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 17, 6:31 pm, tonydecap...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 17, 7:03 pm, "Tom K." <tkor...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > > "Orlando Enrique Fiol" <of...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
messagenews:MPG.22e9784653194720989690@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > > > > tkor...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
> > > > >>Of course, one can also take the view that jazz players "caught
up"
> > > > >>(beginning in the 30's and 40's) with many of the "European
Classical"
> > > > >>extensions of tonality that began in the late Romantic period. 
Examples
> > > > >>abound such as Berg's use of 11th and 13th chords in his early
(pre 1915)
> > > > >>works; the extended chords, "non-functional" progressions and
unresolved
> > > > >>decorative tones of Satie and Debussy beginning in the 1880's,
and the
> > > > >>symmetrical octave division key relation****ps of Wagner as early
as 1860.
>
> > > > >>For me there has been a great amount of cross-fertilization
between the
> > > > >>two,
> > > > >>but to say "Jazz musicians began utilizing a new array of
harmonic
> > > > >>materials" ignores a great deal of music history.
>
> > > > > I agree. Jazz musicians borrowed advanced European classical
harmonic
> > > > > techniques but used them for markedly different purposes than
Wagner,
> > > > > Berg, Debussy or even Puccini did. In jazz, extended harmony is
> > > > > generally used to maintain the presence of blue notes in
otherwise
> > > > > triadic structures by adding chromatic alterations to chord
tones. Thus,
> > > > > a sharp 9 or 11 can be construed as lower neighbor blue notes as
evinced
> > > > > by early Mississippi delta blues treatments of such approach
notes to
> > > > > the fifth and third of a major scale. This is simply one
example. In
> > > > > short, what I'm trying to get across is that European art music
provided
> > > > > the tools, while jazz provided a different task for which those
same
> > > > > tools could be used. Cuban and Brazilian musics also drew
heavily upon
> > > > > those same tools, but often used them for different tasks than
jazz.
>
> > > > Exactly.  Another example is Wagner's integral use of mediant
relation****ps
> > > > (from Beethoven and others) compared to Coltrane's "Giant Steps",
"Central
> > > > Park West", etc..  While I'm sure 'Trane was not directly aware of
Wagner's
> > > > "Ring", those pieces can actually be heard as a clarification as
well as a
> > > > development of what Wagner had done 100 years earlier.
>
> > > > Comparing the harmonic innovations of these two giants is music
theory; not
> > > > classical theory, not jazz theory - just music theory hopefully
describing
> > > > and illuminating salient musical relation****ps and improving
performances,
> > > > no matter what the genre.
>
> > > > Tom K.
>
> > > Indeed, Wagner broke away from the old European classical music
> > > theory. He may have been the *first*  (one of the first, if that
makes
> > > certain individuals feel better). We discussed Wagner already. Jazz
> > > Theory is still a separate theory. Yes, I would say around 1859 he
> > > made a clean break from major/minor system; a system that clearly
very
> > > limited nowadays dealing with Jazz music; as that old system usually
> > > functioned to point to the tonic as the main pitch. Actually Trane's
> > > Giant Steps was an indirect influence from his affection for
> > > Slonimsky's Thesaurus. When I say European Classical Theory, btw, I
> > > refer to the theory that began around the Baroque error and predates
> > > the pioneers like Wagner, and Schoenberg. They opened the doors for
> > > the new theory.
>
> > > -TD
>
> > You see, either you have not read my posts or you are changing your
> > tune. Now you are saying that Wagner went away from the old classical
> > music. BUT it is not Classical music theory that he deviated from, it
> > is the CONVENTIONS that was defined by Music Theory. This is the same
> > Music Theory that explains Wagner to us! and the same music theory
> > that explains Jazz to us as well! Maybe you just didn't read the
> > earlier posts when I said this and defined this and explained the
> > difference at least a dozen times!
> > LJS
>
> You came into my posts. I change no tune; I play them.
>
> -TD

No, you came into a Music Theory group and made statement and I
responded with questions.