Re: Chord Function?

On Jul 30, 3:07=A0pm, tonydecap...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
> On Jul 30, 4:43 pm, j_nsc...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
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> > On Jul 30, 2:02 pm, tonydecap...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
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> > > On Jul 30, 12:42 pm, "Steve Latham" <llat...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
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> > > > <tonydecap...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
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> > >
>news:dcbfffae-5c1b-47b7-a15c-f97cc822ec3c@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> > > > > OK man, basic "major blues form" is:
>
> > > > > Tonic region: C7 / F7 / C7 / G-7 C7/ then sub-dominant region:
F7=
 /
> > > > > F#dim7 / C7 / A7 / to dominant region: G7 or D-7 / F7 or G7 / to
=
tonic
> > > > > region C7 / G7 // =A0We usually replace returning to tonic
region=
 with a
> > > > > turnaround: C9 Eb9 / D9 Db9//
>
> > > > That's a "jazz blues" form.
>
> > > > A Basic blues form is far more basic than that:
>
> > > > I - I - I - I
> > > > IV - IV - I - I
> > > > V - V - I - I
>
> > > > I'm sure you know this, and it's simply not clear which of us is
di=
scussing
> > > > which form.
>
> > > > Best,
> > > > Steve
>
> > > Ahhh, OK, I see. Well, you have sketched out a very primitive blues,
> > > and only one type of very primitive blues. Still, it is unlikely
that
> > > such a primitive blues would be played "all vanilla" and no 7ths.
>
> > I would say the use of plain triads is a hallmark of all the types of
> > very primitive blues.
>
> > =A0You
>
> > > speak of what was played as blues from the 1910's to 1920s when the
> > > art form was still in it's post-infant stages. Before that it was
> > > pretty much one chord or, at best I to V or I to IV only.
>
> > Although we know that some blues (a fairly small fraction) had only
> > one or two chords as of the 1920s, I wouldn't say that less than three
> > chords represents blues in its earliest stages. Folk songs (that
> > weren't "blues") containing I, IV, and V were popular among rural
> > "black" Southerners as of the 1890s, before blues songs were popular.
>
> > =A0Most of
>
> > > those recordings revealed bits of progressions, many deviations from
> > > the standard form (later to be settled on)
>
> > We don't have evidence that what you're calling the standard form
> > arose later than any other form did, as far as blues songs are
> > concerned. For instance, it seems quite possible that "Joe Turner" was
> > using what you call the standard form before the fad for singing about
> > having the "blues" as such existed.
>
> > =A0and many ambiguous chords
>
> > > added, while pertinent chords were deleted.
>
> > > I am not certain what your question or motive is, but more than
> > > likely, yes! CPP would address the I, IV, V triads that the
primitive
> > > blues thrived on. Mike C was not referring to your progression when
h=
e
> > > mentioned blues. The 'sophisticationization' of the blues began to
> > > take form via the early jazz composers.
>
> > Separately from the spread of jazz across the country (which to a
> > large extent was after the spread of blues), blues was also apparently
> > made more harmonically sophisticated by non-jazz town musicians, along
> > the lines of the Memphis Jug Band, for instance. Imo the use of 7ths
> > in blues seems to have been partly popularized by town musicians who
> > were already in the habit of using 7ths in gospel and began playing
> > blues material.
>
> > Lots of substitutions -- i.e., what we hear as normal in jazz guitar
> > blues today -- mostly came in as a fad more about Charlie Parker's
> > time than Kid Ory's time. There are some substitutions that sound
> > obviously "authentic" to us, but weren't actually in fa****on yet as of
> > the 1920s, including IV in the 10th measure and V in the 12th measure.
>
> > Joseph Scott
>
> That's OK, I simply do not agree with you. No blues do***entation in
> 1800s.

Misunderstanding: I don't believe there is any plausible do***entation
of blues music as such existing before 1900 either.

 In addition, I my subject was the blues and not when it began.
> Steve and I were talking about two different subjects is all. Early
> blues absolutely did begin with only three chords.

It almost certainly began with less than four, and probably began with
more than two.

Joseph Scott